Have you figured it out yet?

Billy Ruben wrote:

Ciggy wrote:Deuteronomy:
If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28

...a reason not to try to apply the Torah today!

Fuckit,back in 30 mins....business to do,pot and ebay for a car...Damn,love it when you're here....I'll be smashed when I get back...

Sod-Haus...!!! wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

Ciggy wrote:Deuteronomy:
If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28

...a reason not to try to apply the Torah today!

Fuckit,back in 30 mins....business to do,pot and ebay for a car...Damn,love it when you're here....I'll be smashed when I get back...

Billy Ruben Is Doing Nothing More Exiciting Than Rolling A Spliff...

And Yes He Will Be Smashed When He Returns...

And Yes, I Wish I Had A Spliff Now...!!!



For Billys Trip...

Ciggy wrote:Deuteronomy:
If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28

...a reason not to try to apply the Torah today!

Billy Ruben wrote:

Sod-Haus...!!! wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

Ciggy wrote:Deuteronomy:
If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28

...a reason not to try to apply the Torah today!

Fuckit,back in 30 mins....business to do,pot and ebay for a car...Damn,love it when you're here....I'll be smashed when I get back...

Billy Ruben Is Doing Nothing More Exiciting Than Rolling A Spliff...

And Yes He Will Be Smashed When He Returns...

And Yes, I Wish I Had A Spliff Now...!!!



For Billys Trip...

Nah...Bad day for business.No smoko until tomorrow and got pipped at the last second for my replacement wagon...what a cunt of a day so far...Half a packet of cigareetes and no money till Monday...my fortunes and heart just dropped out my arse...again.

Billy Ruben wrote:

Sod-Haus...!!! wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

Ciggy wrote:Deuteronomy:
If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28

...a reason not to try to apply the Torah today!

Fuckit,back in 30 mins....business to do,pot and ebay for a car...Damn,love it when you're here....I'll be smashed when I get back...

Billy Ruben Is Doing Nothing More Exiciting Than Rolling A Spliff...

And Yes He Will Be Smashed When He Returns...

And Yes, I Wish I Had A Spliff Now...!!!



For Billys Trip...

Nah...Bad day for business.No smoko until tomorrow and got pipped at the last second for my replacement wagon...what a cunt of a day so far...Half a packet of cigareetes and no money till Monday...my fortunes and heart just dropped out my arse...again.

Sod-Haus...!!! wrote:

Goatse... No It's To Hideous For Civalized Human Beings/Doings...!!!

Billy Ruben wrote:rather this little number though,this is me,all the way...Man In Black car....love it.

Sod-Haus...!!! wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:rather this little number though,this is me,all the way...Man In Black car....love it.

Some People Would Buy Any Old Shit Just Because It's On Sale On E Bay...

It's A Guide To Prices...

Not A Fucking Compulsary Buy Now Expencse Account...!!!

Billy Ruben wrote:

Ciggy wrote:Deuteronomy:
If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28

...a reason not to try to apply the Torah today!

Fucking hell,what a rip-off,did fathers just accept shit like that then,must be that groupie love thingie they had going.

Rape daughter=Death,not given lightly



Need skull/skull and bones emoticon

Ciggy wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

Ciggy wrote:Deuteronomy:
If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28

...a reason not to try to apply the Torah today!

Fucking hell,what a rip-off,did fathers just accept shit like that then,must be that groupie love thingie they had going.

Rape daughter=Death,not given lightly



Need skull/skull and bones emoticon

Just goes to show what sickos Semites were. Dad prolly had first crack at her and would be bored of her by the time his neighbour caught her out. Then it's all aboot profit.

Billy Ruben wrote:Next shot at the title...I'm the highest bidder...but did'nt even make reserve,it's worth $1600-2000

true lilly wrote:Qantas pilots 'not safe' to fly
Qantas pilots 'not safe' to fly

1:59AM
Stephen Drill, Neil Wilson
QANTAS has blamed tired and stressed pilots
for its decision to ground its aircraft
and leave 68,000 passengers in limbo.

Pictures: Chaos as Qantas grounds fleet
Poll: Has Qantas gone too far?
Crisis: Tourism industry on official red alert
New flights: Qantas passengers pay high price
Outrage: Passengers' travel plans ruined
Racing carnival: Celebrities in race for flights
Heroism: Brother to bring fallen soldier home
Tourism RED ALERT

DOUCHEBAG SHIT4BRAINS LYING SACK OF SHIT Ciggy wrote: Deuteronomy:22:28


If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28

...a reason not to try to apply the Torah today!

Just goes to show what sickos Semites were. Dad prolly had first crack at her and would be bored of her by the time his neighbour caught her out. Then it's all aboot profit.

There are two points to note here. First, even though the verse may seem to be instructing the rapist to marry the victim the passage nowhere sanctions, condones or even approves of rape. This is simply a gross misreading of the text. The injunction is intended to instruct the Israelites on how to deal with and address a rape situation if and when it occurs.

Second, by taking a careful look at the context and consulting the original languages of the Scriptures a strong case can be made that this is citation isn’t even addressing a rape case at all. We must remember that the Holy Bible was not written in English. The OT was written in Hebrew, with parts of it being written in Aramaic. The NT was written in Koine or common Greek. This means that if we want to know whether an English translation has faithfully and accurately translated the inspired author’s intended meaning we must turn to the original language of the sacred text. Once this is done, it will become quite apparent that the Holy Bible does not sanction rape at all.

As Brown-Driver-Briggs demonstrates, the word can be used in relation to sexual intercourse as well as for other things. The following examples help demonstrate that shakab does not necessarily imply a forced sexual act:
"And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, ‘Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘If any man's wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, and a man lies (shakab) with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and there was no witness against her, nor was she caught—" Numbers 5:11-13 NKJV

Here, the word shakab refers to a voluntary sexual act between two consenting parties, in this case to a woman who voluntarily chooses to commit adultery. It is clear that the woman in question wasn't forced into having sex. Again:

"If a man lies with a woman so that there is a seminal emission, they shall both bathe in water and be unclean until evening." Leviticus 15:18

These examples clearly demonstrate that these terms do not in and of themselves necessarily imply that rape is in view. This is reflected in the way Deuteronomy 22 has been translated by the following translations:

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; KJV

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, who is not espoused, and taking her, lie with her, and the matter come to judgment: DOUAY-RHEIMS

If a man shall find a damsel [that is] a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; WEBSTER BIBLE

If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; WORLD ENGLISH BIBLE

When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found, YLT

When a man findeth a damsel that is a virgin who is not betrothed, and layeth hold of her and lieth with her, and they are found, ROTHERHAM

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; JPS 1917 OT

"If a man find a damsel who is a virgin who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her and lie with her, and they be found, THIRD MILLENNIUM

If a man find a damsel, a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found, DARBY

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; AMV

If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, RSV

If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, NRSV

If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, NASB

If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, ESV

If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her and they are found, AMPLIFIED

Suppose a woman isn't engaged to be married, and a man talks her into sleeping with him. If they are caught, CEV

Now someone may want to argue that the preceding examples do not combine the two words together as is the case with Deuteronomy 22. Hence, the use of the word taphas in conjunction with shakab in Deuteronomy implies that the sexual act was forced upon the maiden without her consent. A careful reading of both the passage itself, as well as its surrounding context, dispels such a notion. We quote the passage again, yet this time adding the surrounding context for further clarification:

"But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces (chazaq) her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman CRIED OUT, but there was no one to save her. If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and THEY ARE found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days." Deuteronomy 22:25-29 NKJV

Although vv. 25-27 refers to a woman that is betrothed, the point is still clear. By screaming, the woman indicates that she is being forced to have sex without her consent. Hence, when the woman does not scream this indicates that she willfully chose to engage in the sexual act with the man. This is further seen from vv. 28-29 where both the man and the woman are held accountable, i.e. "and THEY ARE found out." This is unlike the woman of vv. 25-27 who is said to be not guilty.

Also notice that in v. 25 a different word is used when signifying rape, namely chazaq. If the inspired author wanted to imply that the woman in vv. 28-29 was being raped, he could have used this same word chazaq; especially since this is the word he uses in the preceding verses to refer to an actual rape incident. The fact that he didn't use it should further caution us from reading rape into vv. 28-29.

This is supported by other OT passages. In the places where rape is mentioned none of them use the word taphas with anah. Rather, the authors use the word chazaq with anah to convey this notion:

"Now Dinah the daughter of Leah, whom she had borne to Jacob, went out to see the women of the land. And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, the prince of the land, saw her, he seized (laqach) her and lay (shakab) with her and humiliated (anah) her. And his soul was drawn to Dinah the daughter of Jacob. He loved the young woman and spoke tenderly to her. So Shechem spoke to his father Hamor, saying, ‘Get me this girl for my wife.’ Now Jacob heard that he had defiled his daughter Dinah. But his sons were with his livestock in the field, so Jacob held his peace until they came. And Hamor the father of Shechem went out to Jacob to speak with him. The sons of Jacob had come in from the field as soon as they heard of it, and the men were indignant and very angry, because he had done an outrageous thing (n’balah) in Israel by lying with Jacob's daughter, for such a thing must not be done." Genesis 34:1-7 ESV

And:

"Then Amnon said to Tamar, ‘Bring the food into the chamber, that I may eat from your hand.’ And Tamar took the cakes she had made and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother. But when she brought them near him to eat, he took hold of her and said to her, ‘Come, lie with me, my sister.’ She answered him, ‘No, my brother, do not violate (anah) me, for such a thing is not done in Israel; do not do this outrageous thing (n’balah). As for me, where could I carry my shame? And as for you, you would be as one of the outrageous fools in Israel. Now therefore, please speak to the king, for he will not withhold me from you.’ But he would not listen to her, and being stronger (chazaq) than she, he violated (anah) her and lay (shakab) with her. Then Amnon hated her with very great hatred, so that the hatred with which he hated her was greater than the love with which he had loved her. And Amnon said to her, ‘Get up! Go!’ But she said to him, ‘No, my brother, for this wrong in sending me away is greater than the other that you did to me.’ But he would not listen to her. He called the young man who served him and said, "Put this woman out of my presence and bolt the door after her.’ Now she was wearing a long robe with sleeves, for thus were the virgin daughters of the king dressed. So his servant put her out and bolted the door after her. And Tamar put ashes on her head and tore the long robe that she wore. And she laid her hand on her head and went away, crying aloud as she went. And her brother Absalom said to her, ‘Has Amnon your brother been with you? Now hold your peace, my sister. He is your brother; do not take this to heart.’ So Tamar lived, a desolate woman, in her brother Absalom's house. When King David heard of all these things, he was very angry. But Absalom spoke to Amnon neither good nor bad, for Absalom hated Amnon, because he had violated (anah) his sister Tamar ... But Jonadab the son of Shimeah, David's brother, said, ‘Let not my lord suppose that they have killed all the young men the king's sons, for Amnon alone is dead. For by the command of Absalom this has been determined from the day he violated (anah) his sister Tamar.’" 2 Samuel 13:10-22, 32 ESV

Notice that neither passage uses the word taphas, providing additional support that this word in of itself doesn’t necessarily imply the use of force. It also demonstrates our point that if the inspired author had rape in view he could have simply used chazaq, or even laqach, since these are the very words he used elsewhere to indicate that a rape had occurred.(1)

The final line of evidence demonstrating that Deuteronomy 22:28 does not condone rape comes from Exodus:

"If a man entices (pathah) a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies (shakab) with her, he shall surely pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the bride-price of virgins." Exodus 22:16-17

Note that in this passage the word pathah is used in place of taphas. Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon defines pathah as:



# 06601
1) to be spacious, be open, be wide

a) (Qal) to be spacious or open or wide
b) (Hiphil) to make spacious, make open
2) to be simple, entice, deceive, persuade
a) (Qal)
1) to be open-minded, be simple, be naive
2) to be enticed, be deceived
b) (Niphal) to be deceived, be gullible
c) (Piel)
1) to persuade, seduce
2) to deceive
d) (Pual)
1) to be persuaded
2) to be deceived

AV - entice 10, deceive 8, persuade 4, flatter 2, allure 1, enlarge 1, silly one 1, silly 1; 28
(Source: Blue Letter Bible)

As can be seen, the word can mean entice, persuade, deceive etc. The following passage uses the word in a slightly similar fashion to that of Exodus, namely how God will allure or draw Israel back to his love:

"‘Therefore I am now going to allure (pathath) her; I will lead her into the desert and speak tenderly to her. There I will give her back her vineyards, and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope. There she will sing as in the days of her youth, as in the day she came up out of Egypt. In that day,’ declares the LORD, ‘you will call me "my husband"; you will no longer call me "my master." I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked. In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and the creatures that move along the ground. Bow and sword and battle I will abolish from the land, so that all may lie down in safety. I will betroth you to me forever; I will betroth you in righteousness and justice, in love and compassion. I will betroth you in faithfulness, and you will acknowledge the LORD.’" Hosea 2:14-20

It is clear from the context that Exodus is referring to a man persuading or enticing a woman into having sex. Hence, this passage lends support to the fact that the woman in Deuteronomy 22:28-29 consented to the sexual act, and wasn't forced into having sex. In other words, there was no rape involved between the man and the woman.

As the following Study Bible puts it:

22:28-29 Preceding legislation dealt with cases of rape involving a woman already married or engaged. The ruling outlined here is addressed in cases of seduction IN WHICH IT IS ASSUMED THAT THE WOMAN WAS, OR MAY HAVE BEEN, CONSENTING TO THE SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP. The fact that such a relationship had taken place was nevertheless regarded as of vital concern to the community and therefore required that a requisite sum of money be paid to the woman's father. It is assumed that the bride's father's rights have been violated by what had taken place and that appropriate compensation was necessary to offset the loss of the expected bride-price. A further stipulation required that the couple should then marry and that no subsequent divorce was to be permitted. In Exodus 22:16-17 the closely comparable law allows that the father need not consent to giving his daughter to the man, in which case the compensation was still to be paid to the father. Fifty shekels was a significantly large amount and may be assumed to have been equivalent to the average bride-price. (The New Interpreter's Study Bible: New Revised Standard Version with the Apocrypha [Abingdon Press, Nashville TN 2003], pp. 278-279; underline and capital emphasis ours)

Or, as the late renowned Bible expositor John Gill explained it long ago:

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed…
That is, meets with one in a field, which is not espoused to a man; and the man is supposed to be an unmarried man, as appears by what follows:

and lay hold on her, and lie with her,
she yielding to it, and so is not expressive of a rape, as (Deuteronomy 22:25) WHERE A DIFFERENT WORD FROM THIS IS THERE USED; which signifies taking strong hold of her, and ravishing her by force; yet this, though owing to his first violent seizure of her, and so different from what was obtained by enticing words, professions of love, and promises of marriage, and the like, as in (Exodus 22:16,17) but not without her consent:

and they be found;
in the field together, and in the fact; or however there are witnesses of it, or they themselves have confessed, it, and perhaps betrayed by her pregnancy. (The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible; online source; capital and underline emphasis ours)

This concludes our exegesis of Deuteronomy 22:28-29. We prayerfully hope that by the grace of our risen Lord and eternal Savior Jesus Christ, this short paper will be of great help to those Christians who have been confronted by Muslims with the accusation that the Holy Bible condones the raping of women. Hopefully, both Christians and Muslims will see that the Holy Bible nowhere condones rape.

In the service of our great and eternal triune God forever and ever. Amen. Come Lord Jesus, come. We will always love you, risen Lord of eternal Glory.

barnacle bill wrote:

DOUCHEBAG SHIT4BRAINS LYING SACK OF SHIT Ciggy wrote: Deuteronomy:22:28


If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28

...a reason not to try to apply the Torah today!

Just goes to show what sickos Semites were. Dad prolly had first crack at her and would be bored of her by the time his neighbour caught her out. Then it's all aboot profit.

Ahoy!!! billyboy, are you aware ciggywiggy lied to you?

There are two points to note here. First, even though the verse may seem to be instructing the rapist to marry the victim the passage nowhere sanctions, condones or even approves of rape. This is simply a gross misreading of the text. The injunction is intended to instruct the Israelites on how to deal with and address a rape situation if and when it occurs.

Second, by taking a careful look at the context and consulting the original languages of the Scriptures a strong case can be made that this is citation isn’t even addressing a rape case at all. We must remember that the Holy Bible was not written in English. The OT was written in Hebrew, with parts of it being written in Aramaic. The NT was written in Koine or common Greek. This means that if we want to know whether an English translation has faithfully and accurately translated the inspired author’s intended meaning we must turn to the original language of the sacred text. Once this is done, it will become quite apparent that the Holy Bible does not sanction rape at all.

barnacle bill wrote:
He is unable to make 'his case' honestly so he lies.........he knows I've called him on this lie before so it is prima facie evidence that he is a sociopathic pathological liar..........so sad.............