SERIOUS MATTER: BILLY RUBEN'S Flood of TEXT THREATS

el kabong wrote:

true lilly wrote:

and that was only a tiny sample of the countless examples
of why the wise, keep, The First Commandment, First and Last

hey suzi/not so tru lilly, I see you've made a new fan/reader.

what you know about YHWHs Commandments you could fit in a thimble and have lots of room left over. Your new fan says it well.

Your dog don't hunt. never did. never will.

One effect of an Alphabetic based Monotheism is the brain is using a new abstract, linear, sequential, and reductionist means of communication which moves people who learn it and use it into a Left Brain, Masculine Mode, rather then the usual Pictographic, Feminine Right Brain Mode.

The Aleph/Alphabet subliminally coaxes users to be intolerent of other Iconic Systems of Beliefs.

This is illuminated in the Ten Commandments.
As stated before, Judaism is the first religion to be based upon universal literacy, the written word.

When Moses came down from his meet and greet with YHWH on the mountain, the multitude had fashioned an Idol/Golden Calf, this dicombobulated Moses so much he dropped the two stone Tablets Yahweh had written the ten commandments.


Allegorically: In the first confrontation between Ihage and Written Word, both were destroyed.

As the story goes, Moses returned to the Mountain Top and Yahweh provided him with another set. Yahweh also taught Moses the Alephbet.

The 10 Commandments; The first four Commandments are for the Recognition and service/Worship of Yahweh, the remaining six focus on our fellow humans, loving and serving them.

The Commandment to Honour Both Father and Mother elevates and recognizes the importance and status of Women in the Family Group.

Loving your neighbour is not one of the Ten but appears in the Torah/Instruction, Leviticus 19:18.
The last six commandments are not unusual, and found in other Codexes of Laws, The First four Commandments are Unique.
Each one of the four encourages Alphabetic Literacy by rejecting the Right Brains way of 'knowing'.

One effect of a new, abstract, linear, sequential and reductionist means of communication moves people who learn it into a Left Brain, Masculine Mode.

Social Engineering.

The 10 Commandments: The First four concern Recognition/Respect and Service/Worship of Yahweh.

The remaining six are love and respect of fellow humans.

The Ethics they embody are more sophisticated then other contemporary ANE Cultures.

The commandment to honour BOTH Father and Mother signifies the womens important role and in the Family Unit.

Loving Neighbours is in the General Torah/Instruction: Leviticus 19:18

The last six commandments are not unusual, the first four commandments are unique. Each of the first four encourage Alphabetic literacy by rejecting the right brains way of knowing.

The First Commandment:

20:2 I am Yahweh thy Elohim, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

20:3 Thou shalt have no other elohim before me.

In one fell swoop subserviates all other elohim/gods & goddesses.

Nothing personal, it was business.

The Meta-Message of the First Commandment is that Yahweh is the Master of the Universe, He is self-existant, and all other elohim/gods & goddesses are created beings, subserviant to Him. Psalm 82

Psalm 82

82:1 Yahweh standeth in the congregation of El; he judgeth among the elohim.

82:2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

82:4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

82:5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

82:6 I have said, Ye are elohim; and all of you are children of the most High.

82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

82:8 Arise, O Yahweh, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

All of Yahwehs Titles are masculine.

The First Commandment is a radical break with the Hebrews past environment. Moses and the Hebrews had left Egypt which was Polytheistic, alot of gods and goddesses worship.

Yahweh declares there is no worship of other gods or goddesses. Full Stop.

Perhaps the most radical sentence ever written.

The Second Commandment:

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I; Yahweh thy Elohim am a jealous Elohim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

No Graven Images, Icons or Idols, Statues.

Learning to think without Images is indispensable to Alphabetic Literacy. The Power formerly rendered to Images/Pictures is now transferred to the written word.

Make no Graven Images is a ban/restraint on Right Brain Pattern Recognition.

The Third Commandment:

20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of Yahweh thy Elohim in vain; for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Do not use Yahwehs Name vainly, with Malintent. Again; Left Brain.

Yahwehs first instruction to adam isto Name all the critters. Through Naming, Adam attains dominion over all the Earth. Naming confers meaning and order, moving Life from Chaos to Order.

To Name is to know, to know is to control. Order out of Chaos.

The Fourth Commandment:

20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

20:10 But the seventh day is the Sabbath of thy Elohim: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

20:11 For in six days made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Seven Days are not a Natural Break Point in any of Earths Major Natural Rhythmic Cycles-Lunar-Solar, except the Quarter Moon.

This facilitates the learning of Aritmatic.

Leviticus 25:3-10 is about the Jubilee Years, the 50th,

No other ANE culture at that time had instructed the general population to compute complex time periods, this had formerly been the domain of the Priestly Castes.

The Time Commandment lays the foundation for the concept of Justice, a well developed sense of Linear Time is necessary to conceive of Punishment delayed and Rewards postponed.

Non-Literate Cultures are not as pre-occupied with the notion/concept of Justice as the Literate, because they do not conceive of time only as linear.

Non-Literated peeps tend to think of death as a passage to another World, not as a Day in Court.

Alphabets stretch out the sense of Time and make possible the awareness of the possibility of a retribution Time in the distant future.

A Judgements day only occurs in Literate Cultures.

Alphabet Literate Cultures became aware of writing History in a Linear, Chronological sequencing of Events.

The fourth Commandments Mechanical/Sociological ramifications is instructing people to be aware of Passing Time.

This was the advent of the seven day week, and a day off every week.

A day off for ALL Humans, Free and Bond, and ALL Beasts of Burden and the Farmland every seven years isto lay fallow to rejuvinate the enzymes in the ground.

This led to Sundials, waterclocks, Pendulums, Escape Mechanisms, Cogs, Gears, Calenders.

Time is a key function of the Left Brain.

Each of the First Four Commandments trains people in the ability to: Think Abstractly, linearly and sequentially.

Collectively, they produce a Mindset that enhances the use and facility of Alphabetic Literacy.

This Technology welded the small group into a cohesive and coherent Nation/Culture.

Do you realise how you contradict yourself? The First Commandment is a pillar of the Torah/Instruction (which you insult and falsly declare was 'done away with') of YHWH Elohim, and it declares that the Hebrews were in Egypt/Mizraim, which you deny.

Torah means Instruction. YHWH Elohim has provided aLL humankind with His Instruction, who are you to say otherwise?

A lying, false prophet.

You are really a mental case like Billy Rueben has documented.

ANTISEMITISM AND CHRISTIANITY

http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/i8820.html

Hitler did not achieve most of his political and military goals, but on the Jewish question he succeeded remarkably. If his antisemitic propaganda found resonance, its success can be credited in large measure to the unrelenting anti-Jewish Christian theological discourse that linked Nazi propaganda with the traditions and moral authority of the churches. That link was proclaimed with enthusiasm by Nazi Christians: “In the Nazi treatment of the Jews and its ideological stance, Luther’s intentions, after centuries, are being fulfilled.”13 Antisemitism was the lingua franca of the Nazi era and was employed by church leaders to gain credibility with their own adherents—but also out of sincere antisemitic conviction. Antisemitism was also a tactic in the rhetorical battles among the different Christian factions, with each accusing its opponents of being “Jewish” while positioning itself as the true Nazi believer.14

Already in 1971 the historian Uriel Tal challenged the entrenched view that racist antisemitism is a new phenomenon that repudiates Christianity by arguing that it was actually utterly dependent on Christian anti-Judaism for its success: “it was not the economic crises that brought about this new political, racial and antireligious antisemitism, but completely the reverse, it was precisely the anti-Christian and antireligious ideology of racial antisemitism which hampered the first antisemitic parties in their efforts to utilize the economic crisis for their political development . . . [because] what still attracted the masses was the classical, traditional Christian anti-Judaism, however adapted it may have become to the new economic conditions.”15 Tal demonstrated that Germany’s antisemitic, völkisch movements that arose in the nineteenth century had to abandon their initial anti-Christian stances in order to win supporters for whom Christian anti-Jewish arguments held profound political appeal.16 Even within the so-called “church struggle” between German Christians and the Confessing Church for control of the Protestant church, antisemitism became the glue that united the otherwise warring factions. Similarly, however much Hitler made use of images of messianism, redemption, and other Christian motifs, the most useful and consistent aspect of Christianity for the Nazi movement was its anti-Judaism, just as the single most consistent and persistent feature of Nazism was its antisemitism.

Hitler was well aware of arguments that were central to the Institute: that Jesus was an Aryan, and that Paul, as a Jew, had falsified Jesus’s message, themes he repeatedly mentioned in private conversations, together with rants against the church as a Jewish subversion of the Aryan spirit (though the reliability of his reported private conversations is uncertain). In a diatribe alleged to have occurred in October of 1941, the month Hitler made the decision to murder the Jews,17 Hitler proclaimed that Jesus was not a Jew, but a fighter against Jewry whose message was falsified and exploited by Paul: “St. Paul transformed a local movement of Aryan opposition to Jewry into a super-temporal religion, which postulates the equality of all men . . . [causing] the death of the Roman Empire.”18 His views demonstrate that the German Christian diagnosis of Christianity as tainted by Jewish influence resonated at the highest levels of the Reich, but that its prescribed solution of dejudaization was met with skepticism if not sheer mockery. Was Christianity thoroughly impregnated with Judaism, or could it be dejudaized, as the Institute claimed?

Like the antisemitic parties of the nineteenth century, the Nazi Party could not reject Christianity—not only because it would offend the moral and social sensibilities of Germans, but because the antisemitism of Christianity formed the basis on which the party could appeal to Germans with its racial and nationalist ideology. Nazism’s relationship to Christianity was not one of rejection, nor was it an effort to displace Christianity and become a form of “political religion.” Nazism did not present racial antisemitism as antithetical to Christian theological anti-Judaism; rather, Nazi ideology was a form of supersessionism, a usurpation and colonization of Christian theology, especially its antisemitism, for its own purposes. The theology of the Institute was a similar effort at supersessionism in reverse, taking over elements of Nazi racial ideology to bolster and redefine the Christian message. The result was an uneasy competition between two sides seeking popular support and institutional control, though access to power was, of course, highly asymmetrical.

Thus, while seeking to undermine the political power and moral authority of the churches, Nazism simultaneously appropriated key elements of Christian theology into its own ideology both for purposes of winning adherents used to Christian arguments and also to give its own message a coherence and resonance with the age-old Christian teachings that had shaped European culture. Conversely, German Christians appropriated Nazi rhetoric and symbols into the church to give its Christianity a contemporary resonance. Both the Nazis and the German Christians identified Hitler as Christ’s second coming. That gave Hitler the status of a supernatural being and gave Christ renewed glory as a contemporary figure of enormous political significance. Both were suspicious of the institutional church. Factions within the Nazi Reich and the party saw the church as competition and a potential threat to be ultimately eliminated after the war.19 The German Christians sought control and radical reform of the Protestant church, which they never fully achieved, leading them to bitter complaints and, in some cases, demands for its demolition. Meanwhile, Christianity was not to be banned nor the churches outlawed; rather, as the historian Ernst Piper writes, Nazi strategy was to control the churches and lead to “a steadily advancing process of delegitimization and disassociation, of undermining and repression” that would undercut the church’s moral authority and position of respect.20 In its own supersessionist theology, an amalgam of Nazism and Christianity, with a rejection of church authority and doctrine, an assertion of German supremacy and Jewish degeneracy, and absurd revisions of the Bible, the German Protestant church contributed substantially to the Nazi project of undermining Christianity.

The establishment of the Institute in 1939 and the proliferation of its projects during the war years demonstrates that the antisemitism of the German Christians was not simply rhetorical, but was intended to lend active support to Nazi policies against the Jews—or, at times, to push those policies in more radical directions. Indeed, certain Protestant theologians stood at the forefront in discussions of the so-called Jewish problem; Gerhard Kittel’s notorious speech of May 1933, later published as a pamphlet, has been called the most antisemitic utterance of that year.21 In considering ways to rid Germany of Jews, Kittel proposed not only expulsion and guest status, but extermination (“Ausrottung”), a method he rejected only because it was too difficult to implement. On February 24–25, 1936, a few months after the proclamation of the Nuremberg Laws, but long before Jews were being deported and murdered, a group of theologians, some of whom subsequently became leaders of the Institute, met in Dresden to discuss a merger of the German Christian factions of the state churches of Thuringia and Saxony. During the course of the meeting, Siegfried Leffler, a German Christian leader, official in the Thuringian Ministry of Education, and, by 1939, figurehead of the Institute, stated:

In a Christian life, the heart always has to be disposed toward the Jew, and that’s how it has to be. As a Christian, I can, I must, and I ought always to have or to find a bridge to the Jew in my heart. But as a Christian, I also have to follow the laws of my nation [Volk], which are often presented in a very cruel way, so that again I am brought into the harshest of confl icts with the Jew. Even if I know “thou shalt not kill” is a commandment of God or “thou shalt love the Jew” because he too is a child of the eternal Father, I am able to know as well that I have to kill him, I have to shoot him, and I can only do that if I am permitted to say: Christ.22
What is striking is not only that Leffler spoke of killing Jews as early as February 1936, long before mass murder of the Jews became Nazi policy, but that there was no response to his comments from those attending, neither immediately nor later in the session; the discussion simply continued as if murder of Jews in the name of Christ was a customary topic.23 The aryanization of Jesus into a manly, heroic, fighting spirit reflected among the theologians the “heroic realism” that prevailed in the 1930s within right-wing political thought. That “heroism” meant killing one’s opponent without emotion but in accord with principles of natural law, in defense of one’s own race and at the cost of personal sacrifice.24 Paul Althaus, professor of theology at the University of Erlangen and a noted ethicist, was present at the meeting, but expressed nothing to indicate that he was appalled or disturbed by Leffler’s remarks. The lack of outrage is evidence that ridding Germany of Jews had become an acceptable point of discussion among theologians, even when murder was proposed as a technique of achieving it. The Nuremberg Laws, while perceived by many German Jews as protection from far worse legislation, were viewed as an encouragement by the German Christian movement to take even more radical positions. Legal cases in German courts, brought in the wake of the Nuremberg Laws’ criminalization of sexual relations and marriage between Jews and Aryans, and widely reported in the German press, implicated Jews as sexual predators of Aryans, further encouraging Christian theologians to insist on protecting Christian purity by eradicating Jewishness with even more radical measures.25 The penetration of Christian bodies by Jewish sex reiterated a typical motif of racist rhetoric, the dangers of miscegenation, and reinforced fears that Aryanism was not immutable, but subject to destruction by Jews.26 Antisemites had long insisted that German Aryan women were vulnerable to Jewish predation, and Jesus, whose gentleness and suffering was viewed as effeminate by German Christians, was depicted in one caricature as an Aryan woman on a cross with a lecherous Jewish man in the foreground: the crucifixion as the Jewish rape of Germany. ............................

true lilly wrote:
Interesting because
the more 'they' scream at the world to wake up,
the more those, starting to SEE,
God's Saving Revelations,
are beaten, cowed and BOUGHT into SELLING
DENIAL of The Light of Truth,
so feared and hated by The Willingly Evil.

(1) A Song of Degrees, for Shlomo:

1. Unless God builds the house,

Its builders toil in vain (shav).

2. Unless God watches over the city,

The watchman stays awake in vain (shav).

3. (2) It is vain (shav) for you to awaken early,

To sit up late,

To eat the bread of toil

- For to His beloved He gives tranquility (shena).

4. (3) Behold, children are the heritage of God,

And fruit of the womb – reward.

5. (4) Like arrows in the hand of a mighty one,

So are the children of one’s youth.

6. (5) Happy is the man

Who has filled his quiver with them;

7. They shall not be put to shame,

When they speak with their enemies at the gate.”

A. Two obvious difficulties

Chapter 127 of Sefer Tehillim (like the following one – 128) belongs to a relatively small group of psalms that may be referred to as “wisdom psalms." Their aim is to educate towards a proper world-view, to inculcate biblical life-experience in the reader – like Sefer Mishlei and other books of wisdom. While the great majority of the psalms address the relationship between man and God, these “psalms of wisdom” deal with guidance for life (the assumption being, needless to say, that one’s life is always centered around God). While most of the psalms reflect a “vertical” relationship, between man and God, the “psalms of wisdom” (and the biblical literature of wisdom in general) is “horizontal” – i.e., inter-personal.[1]

The psalm is presented above as a poem should be written in brief lines and divided into stanzas.[2] From the point of view of literal exegesis, it seems straightforward and presents little difficulty.[3] However, even upon the most superficial initial reading, two questions immediately present themselves concerning the structure of the psalm and its thematic integrity:

The first question pertains to the psalm as a whole. We see that it is comprised of two halves, each addressing a different subject and each with a different atmosphere. Stanzas 1-3 express one idea: that man’s efforts alone will not bear fruit if God is not a partner to his efforts. The atmosphere here is a negative one, as expressed in the thrice-repeated negation – “shav” (in vain) concerning the three examples cited to illustrate the main idea: the building of a house, the guarding of a city, and hard work in order to make a living. The same idea could be expressed in a positive way: “When God desires a man’s ways, his endeavors will succeed”, or “It is God Who gives person strength to build a house and to guard a city." However, our psalm chooses the negative formulation: in the absence of God’s partnership in man’s actions, all of his endeavors will amount to nothing.

The second half of the psalm (stanzas 4-7), in contrast, has a different subject: the blessing that comes to a man who has “children of his youth."

The stanzas of each of the two halves are united around the same subject, and we note an inner development in each of them. However, we are left with the question: What is the connection between the two halves of the psalm? Is there one single idea which the psalm as a whole is trying to express? In other words, is our psalm an integral whole? Is it built in a manner that serves to mold a single idea, or is it a composite of two independent parts under the same heading (“A Song of Degrees for Shlomo”), brought together for reasons which remain to be discovered?

The second obvious difficulty in our psalm concerns the words at the end of verse 2: “For to those who love Him He will give tranquility." Even on the level of literal meaning, the intention here is not clear: what is the meaning of the first word, “ken”? Does it mean “so”, or “such”, such hat this verse stands in comparison to something that appeared previously? If so – what, and what is the significance of the comparison? Or, perhaps “ken” means “indeed”? The word “shena” (tranquility) likewise presents some difficulty. Does this mean “rest” (‘shena’ spelled with a ‘heh’ at the end), as some of the earlier commentators suggest? If so, we must ask why the word here ends with an “alef." And what does the phrase mean, as a whole? Perhaps this word has some other meaning. If so – what is it?

The greatest difficulty here concerns the place of these words: Do they belong to the third stanza and the first part of the psalm?[4] This seems unlikely since, as we have pointed out, the atmosphere of the first half is negative, while these words – no matter how we interpret them – are unquestionably formulated in a positive manner. There is some sort of positive gift that God is bestowing on those who love Him. This being the case, perhaps these words are meant to serve as an introduction to the second half? The problem is that the subject of this half is the blessing of children that comes to man from God. The phrase in question seems to have nothing to do with this theme.

Since we are initially unable to decide where these words belong, we leave them for the meantime in a section of their own, in between the third and fourth stanzas – or, between the two halves of the psalm.

In the next shiurim we will attempt to analyze the psalm in an orderly manner, with the hope of finding answers to our questions above.

Translated by Kaeren Fish

[1] Aside from psalms 127 and 128, we may note the following examples: 1, (34), 37, 45, 49, (78), 112, 133. The chapters in parentheses are those which cannot be unequivocally categorized. In his book, “Sheki’ei Chokhma be-Sefer Tehillim” (Magnes, Jerusalem 5751), Prof. Avi Horwitz discusses the identification of “wisdom psalms” in Sefer Tehillim from a linguistic perspective. In the first chapter of his book he presents a critical review of the approaches proposed by scholars who preceded him in this field of inquiry, and of their scope. On p. 128 of his book he presents a synoptic table comparing ten different views, dating from the 1930’s until the present. The table shows that there is consensus among eight or more scholars concerning only five psalms: 1, 34, 37, 49, and 112. Some of the scholars identify as many as fourteen “psalms of wisdom”; others count a total that is much smaller (five or six).

The list of psalms at the beginning of this note does not follow any particular approach, nor have we involved ourselves deeply in the methodological question of identifying the “wisdom psalms”. Our criteria were, firstly, the “audience” to whom the psalm is addressed – God or man – and secondly, the content and style of the psalm.

The topic is itself worthy of thorough discussion, and I do not pretend to do it justice here. Therefore, the list here should be regarded as no more than an initial impression arising from these psalms.

It should further be noted that Psalm 91, which we analyzed in previous shiurim, also possesses some of the distinctive characteristics of a “wisdom psalm," and indeed one of the ten scholars included in Horwitz’s survey does include it in his list.

[2] In our analysis of Psalm 130 (mi-ma’amakim) we discussed the importance of presenting the psalms in Sefer Tehillim in a manner that highlights their lyrical character.

[3] “The bread of toil” (lechem ha-atzabim) means bread eaten in sorrow. The idea here is that the worker is so exhausted by his intensive and prolonged labor that he eats not in a relaxed frame of mind, but rather in sorrow. This hints to God’s words to Adam (Bereishit 3:17), “Cursed is the land because of you; you shall eat of it in sorrow (be-itzavon)," and further on (verse 19), “you shall eat bread by the sweat of your brow”. However, the meaning in our psalm is slightly different: here the verse is talking about the bread that accompanies man’s hard labor. We deduce this from the parallel between the words “mashkimei”/ ”me’acharei”/ ”ochlei," all of which describe human action and effort, not its results.

The words “For to His beloved He gives tranquility” will be discussed below.

“The children of one’s youth” means that children who are born to a person while he is still young. Similarly, “eshet ne’urim” means a woman whom a man marries in his youth.

[4] As we must conclude if the word ‘ken’ is understood to mean “thus” or “so”.

Shiur #11: Psalm 127 - Continued

By Rav Elchanan Samet


(1) A Song of Degrees, for Shlomo/Solomon:
1. Unless God builds the house,

Its builders toil in vain (shav).

2. Unless God watches over the city,

The watchman stays awake in vain (shav).

3. (2) It is vain (shav) for you to awaken early,

To sit up late,

To eat the bread of toil

- For to His beloved He gives tranquility (shena).

4. (3) Behold, children are the heritage of God,

And fruit of the womb – reward.

5. (4) Like arrows in the hand of a mighty one,

So are the children of one’s youth.

6. (5) Happy is the man

Who has filled his quiver with them;

7. They shall not be put to shame,

When they speak with their enemies at the gate.”



B. The parallel between stanzas a and b, and their hidden meaning


The first two stanzas of our psalm maintain a synonymous[1], direct[2], complete[3] parallel, as follows:

If God does not build a house its builders labor in vain.



If God does not guard a city the guard stays awake in vain.



There is a thematic development between the two hemistiches: the “city” is a collection of houses which have already been built and which now require security: they need a watchman.

In contrast to this broadening of the perspective in the second limb in relation to the first, we also find the opposite phenomenon: the building of the house, in the first limb, is carried out by a number of “builders," while the guarding of the city (with its many houses) is carried out by a single “guard." The reason for this linguistic difference would seem to be that the construction of a house does usually involve a number of workers (whether for the sake of finishing the work sooner or because a variety of artisans are needed for different tasks), whereas the city can be guarded by a single watchman looking out for approaching enemies from an observation post where he can see them while they are still far off and raise the alarm by sounding the shofar or by directly notifying the king.[4]

Is it the intention of these two stanzas to nullify the value of man’s efforts to build his house and to protect the security of his city? This cannot be possible; it would be an offense both to common sense and to the prevailing biblical view that a person must exert effort for the sake of securing his own existence.[5] Indeed, those among the early commentators who interpret our psalm in its general human context (and not in relation to the building of the Temple)[6] explain that it does not contradict common sense or the accepted biblical conventions concerning human effort. According to their interpretations, man’s own efforts are a necessary but insufficient condition, and in the absence of God’s hidden involvement, man’s efforts will not attain their objective.

Ibn Ezra explains:

Since (the verse) starts by mentioning building (of a house), which is a great need for people… and the meaning of (the words), “toil in vain” is – if God does not help them, or brings a strong wind that can destroy everything. Thus, (the verse) mentions the artisans – who are the builders, thereafter the watchmen of the building – who are the watchmen of the city… and then (in the third stanza), the merchants of the city.


The Meiri expresses the same idea somewhat more clearly:

(The psalm) says, as advice and guidance for people, that when they invest effort in their property, even though effort is good, one should not place one’s faith in his own efforts and not think, when he obtains his desire, that it was his effort that achieved this for him. Rather, everything is from the blessed God, and it is He Who inspired him to make the effort, and it is He Who brought him to achieve his desire. The Torah warns, in this regard (Devarim 8:17-18), “And you say in your heart, ‘My strength and the might of my hand have achieved all this wealth for me,’" up until “you shall remember the Lord your God, for is it He Who gives you strength to make wealth”.[7]

After completing his commentary on the first three stanzas of our psalm, he comes back to his original message:

And all of this (is meant) not to discourage one from investing effort – for you will find no wise person who denounces effort and praises sloth. Rather, (the message is that) one should not place all of his trust in it (i.e., human effort), and not believe, when he achieves (his aim), that he has achieved what he has by his own effort; rather, God has graciously given it to him.

Given the Meiri’s view that our psalm provides general moral and religious guidance for all people, it seems strange that the psalmist choose the negative formulation to teach this lesson (“Unless God builds a house…”), rather than a positive formulation (“Only if God…”). Hence, it would appear that our psalm is meant to serve as rebuke to people who act improperly and who believe that only through their own strength and might can they build themselves houses and cities[8], and ensure their own security and livelihood. It is to these people that the psalmist declares that their efforts will be in vain, for God will not look with favor upon their actions, and they will not last if they are contrary to God’s will.



(to be continued)

Translated by Kaeren Fish



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] A synonymous parallel is one where the two limbs express identical or similar content. The opposite of a synonymous parallel is a contrasting parallel, for example: “A wise son makes his father joyful, but a foolish son is the grief of his mother” (Mishlei 10:1).

The terminology used here represents a translation of that set down in an article by Batsheva Brosh, “Hora’at ha-Tikbolet be-Shira ha-Mikrait”, published in Al ha-Perek 1, 1984, pp. 51-61.

[2] A direct parallel is one where structurally the two limbs are set out in the same order. The opposite of a direct parallel is a chiastic parallel. These two terms have nothing to do with the content of the limbs in question: both a direct parallel and a chiastic parallel may be either synonymous or contrasting, in terms of content (see previous note).

[3] A complete parallel is where the same syntactical elements appear in both limbs. The opposite of a complete parallel is an incomplete parallel, where one of the limbs is missing some syntactical element which exists in the other limb, and this element must be added from one limb to the other (sometimes from the first limb to the second, at other times the other way around).

[4] An exact description of the role of the watchman is to be found in Yechezkel 33:1-6 (and further on, the role of the prophet is compared to that of the watchman). A description of the specific action performed by the watchman is to be found in Shmuel II 13:34, and in more detail in Shmuel II 18:24-27 and Melakhim II 9:17-20. In the three latter sources, the watchman fulfills his task by notifying the king of the approach of some (still distant) unidentified party. However, in each of these cases it turns out that the party in question is not an enemy coming to conquer the city.

Since the action of the watchman is not connected to physical activity, like that of the builders of the house, the word “bo” is absent from the second limb of the parallel.

[5] The sources cited in the previous note suffice to show that guarding the city is regarded as an absolute obligation, and that anyone who is negligent in this regard is fully responsible for the consequences (see the description of the watchman in Yechezkel 33).

Similarly, a person’s obligation to work for his livelihood is likewise clear in Tanakh. For example, Tehillim 104:23: “Man goes out to his work and to his labor until evening.”

In Sefer Mishlei we find many recommendations for significant human effort and conscientiousness in work for the sake of making a living (as we will discuss further on), but concerning a person’s home we read in Kohelet 10:18 – “From sloth the beams collapse, and through idleness of the hands the house leaks”.

This subject is addressed at length (including a discussion of our psalm) in a book by Dr. Amos Frisch, “Yegi’a Kapecha – Yachas ha-Mikra el ha-Avoda”, Ha-Kibbutz ha-Me’uchad, 5759.

[6] Most of the commentators explain this psalm, taking a cue from its introductory words, as referring to the building of the Temple, whether by David – who exerted considerable effort but was unsuccessful, or by Shlomo – who finally did built it. Some of these commentators go on to explain it as referring to “people of the world” – i.e., they regard it as a “psalm of wisdom” that imparts a lesson to all of mankind. We will adopt this view in our study of the psalm.

[7] It would seem that the Meiri cites the verses here from his memory. He misquotes verse 18 slightly; I have cited the correct version of the verse.

[8] I am reminded of the builders of the Tower of Bavel, who said (Bereishit 11:4), “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower…”. They disregarded the message of our psalm, concerned only with their own strength and their name. However, God “did not build” the city and the tower, but sought to halt their construction, and therefore (verse “God dispersed them from there over all of the face of the earth, and they ceased to build the city.”

(1) A Song of Degrees, for Shlomo:
1. Unless God builds the house,

Its builders toil in vain (shav).

2. Unless God watches over the city,

The watchman stays awake in vain (shav).

3. (2) It is vain (shav) for you to awaken early,

To sit up late,

To eat the bread of toil

- For to His beloved He gives tranquility (shena).

4. (3) Behold, children are the heritage of God,

And fruit of the womb – reward.

5. (4) Like arrows in the hand of a mighty one,

So are the children of one’s youth.

6. (5) Happy is the man

Who has filled his quiver with them;

7. They shall not be put to shame,

When they speak with their enemies at the gate.”



C. Stanza 3 in comparison with its predecessors



The third stanza differs from its predecessors in several respects. Firstly, it lacks the negative conditional clause – “If God does not…." This could convey the impression that awakening early and settling late are negative in and of themselves, independently of the question of God’s partnership in the efforts of those who conduct themselves in this way.



Secondly, while both of the previous stanzas speak in the third person of people who exert effort in vain, here we find that the psalmist addresses them directly, in the second person: “It is vain for you…."



Thirdly, while the “vain” action in each of the previous stanzas was a single activity (building, guarding), described in a single line of poetry, the third stanza offers three different vain activities (arising early, settling late, eating), all carried out for a single purpose – apparently, to make a living – but this purpose is not mentioned in the text.[1] This stanza therefore consists entirely of the three actions whose heading is, “in vain."



We must now ask, does the third stanza represent a smooth thematic continuation of its predecessors, or do the differences between them indicate that some new point is being made here?



Notwithstanding the differences set forth above, there are several decisive factors that place the third stanza as an unbroken continuation.



Firstly, the appearance of the word “shav” (“in vain”) at the outset represents the third repetition of this word, after it has appeared in each of the two previous stanzas. Apparently, the intention here is as it was in the previous stanzas: “There is no value to your actions unless God is party to them.”



Secondly, the types of human activity addressed previously – the building of a house and the guarding of a city – illustrate two typical areas of human existential endeavor: finding shelter and ensuring security. The third stanza seems to complement these by presenting another – even more prominent – typical existential area of effort: economic viability.



The three stanzas would therefore appear to represent a single idea that is broken down into three examples. It is therefore not reasonable to posit that the third stanza comes to present a new idea, different from the one expressed in the first two, without explaining its meaning.



What, then, is the meaning of the differences between the third stanza and its predecessors?



Let us first address the matter of the missing condition: “Unless God…." For this purpose we must go back to the parallel nature of the stanzas.



The third stanza itself is built as a parallel with three limbs.[2] Is there also a parallel between the third stanza and the previous two? (We have already seen that the first two stanzas maintain a clear parallel.)



The answer would seem to be clearly in the affirmative. The third stanza is a parallel in synonymous, chiastic, incomplete[3] form, as follows:



Stanzas a,b: If God does not…. … in vain





Stanza c: It is vain for you --



Considering that the third stanza parallels the previous stanzas in terms of content (hence our definition of this as a “synonymous parallel”), we must ask why its structure is different (bringing the consequence to the beginning of the sentence, and thereby producing a chiastic parallel), and why this stanza is lacking a part, requiring the intuition of its complement on the basis of the two previous stanzas (hence the definition as an “incomplete parallel”).



The answer to these questions is that all of the changes characterizing stanza c. in relation to its predecessors arise from the fact that this stanza concludes the first section of the psalm. I shall presently explain what this means.



When a chiastic parallel follows a direct one, it is often meant to “wrap up” the statement that is being made. As in many other instances in Tanakh, the chiasm here expresses conclusion and confirmation.[4] The third stanza concludes the first section of the psalm, and is therefore presented as a chiastic parallel to the two preceding stanzas.



The fact that the parallel is incomplete arises from the length of the description, in this stanza, of actions that are “vain”: there is an enumeration of three actions instead of a single one as in the previous stanzas. Thus, the number of words in this stanza (9) is equal to the number in the previous stanzas. Had the conditional clause (“Unless God…”) been added here, the quantitative balance would have been lost, with the consequent implications for the rhythm which would have been similarly affected – along with aesthetic considerations.[5]



However, we may ask: why does the third stanza need to enumerate three different activities that are undertaken “in vain”, rather than sufficing with just one? The answer is, once again, that since this stanza “sums up” the message of the first part of the psalm, the idea of “vanity” is expressed here with greater intensity and with greater variation – and hence, necessarily, at greater length. I will explain this further.



We have already hinted above that the example of human effort in the quest for existential needs that is discussed in this third stanza – the toil to ensure economic viability, to obtain sustenance – is a more obvious example than either of the two preceding ones. Why is this so?



The building of a house lasts for a limited time. When the action is complete, the house stands firm, and its inhabitant has satisfied his existential need for shelter.

The guarding of a city, in contrast, is an action that continues – every day and every night. However, this action is not one that every person engages in. The city guards are a small, defined group of people for whom guarding is a permanent, professional occupation. Furthermore, while guarding the city is unquestionably a position of great responsibility, it does not involve much physical effort – unlike many other human endeavors (such as building a house).



In a league of its own is the Sisyphean effort to make a living. This ongoing effort is the lot of every person, for all of his life. It requires that a person devote his days, from early in the morning until the evening, to hard work involving physical and mental exertion.



Thus, the message here is that it is not only the relatively brief endeavors (such as building a house) or professional specializations (like guarding) whose success depends on Divine involvement and help, but also – and especially – the endeavor that is most characteristic of the human condition, and the most demanding: making a living.



In light of this, the third stanza represents the most intensive expression of the idea set forth in the first part of the psalm. This also explains the extra enumeration of actions that are carried out “in vain” in this stanza – with ramifications for its structure and its parallel relationship with its predecessors.



The third stanza involves one further development: the psalmist addresses the people toiling to earn their bread in the second person: “It is vain for you…." This technique serves to intensify the tone of reproof that was already hinted at in the previous stanzas.



Previously, we noted that the formulation of the moral, religious message of our psalm in the negative (“Unless God builds… in vain”) alludes to the Divine retribution awaiting builders of the house and guards of the city who are not worthy of Divine partnership in their actions, and who will therefore see no success in their endeavors.



This note of rebuke becomes more tangible when the psalmist addresses people directly. The actions of these people, toiling endlessly to obtain sustenance, will not achieve anything if they are not blessed by God.



Thus, despite the differences between the third stanza and the two preceding ones – and by means of those differences – the third stanza turns out to represent a continuation and development of the same idea that they introduced.



(to be continued)



Translated by Kaeren Fish



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] The reason for its absence would seem to arise from the first difference that we noted above between the third stanza and the first two: previously, the purpose of the human activity – the building of the house or the guarding of the city – was noted in the conditional clause. However, since no conditional clause exists in the third stanza, there is no mention of the purpose of the activity that is carried out “in vain”, and we must conclude this from the nature of the activity that is described. Had some conditional clause existed here, the verse would read, “If God does not provide food”, or the suchlike.

[2] The parallel here is synonymous, direct, and incomplete (see the footnotes of the previous shiur for an explanation of these terms), as follows:

“It is vain for you to rise up early

to settle late

to eat the bread of toil.”

While the third stanza is not a complete parallel with the previous ones, it nevertheless expresses the same idea and with a similar word order.

[3] See the footnotes of the previous shiur for an explanation of these terms.

[4] As discussed at length and in detail by A. Mirsky z”l in his work, “Ha-Pissuk shel ha-Signon ha-Ivri” (First Edition, Mossad ha-Rav Kook, Jerusalem 5738; Second Edition published as “Signon Ivri,” Jerusalem 5759). Just two of the many examples that he cites are Tehillim 115:5-7 and 22:24.

[5] The first three stanzas, comprising the first part of the psalm, are all of about the same length – 8-9 words. The length of the four stanzas comprising the second part are likewise of similar length – 6-7 words. To illustrate the literary reason for the difference in the parallel that appears in the third stanza, let us imagine how the text would read had the direct and complete parallel continued into this stanza:

“Unless God builds a house its builders toil in vain.

Unless God guards a city the guard watches in vain.

Unless God grows bread those who awaken early and settle late do so in vain; those who work the ground eat the bread of toil.”

While the idea is expressed here more clearly than it is in the psalm as we have it, there can be no question that the literary and musical appeal is gone, and thus the whole moral and thematic power is lost

• Global tour sheds stars The Daily Telegraph, 27 Oct 2011
  
• Relatives call for court martial The Daily Telegraph, 19 Sep 2011
  
• GOOD MAIL: Where the news is all good Courier Mail, 4 Sep 2011
  
• Drug-addicted actress finds God The Daily Telegraph, 24 Jul 2011
  
• GT giant joins V8 Supercars FoxSports, 15 Jul 2011
  

Billy Ruben wrote:

true lilly wrote:
German woman dies in
Thai elephant mishap
From:AP
November 30, 2011
9:59PM

A 52-YEAR-old German woman has died after falling off an elephant in southern Thailand.

Police Captain Chatchai Nakpaksee says the tourist, Kerstin Kretz
Schmar, was riding the elephant with her husband when the accident
occurred on Tuesday evening in Krabi province.
The elephant
slipped, and the couple fell to the ground. Kretz Schmar's husband
landed on top of her. She died at a Krabi hospital.
Chatchai said today that no one has been charged in the incident, and that an investigation was under way.
Elephant rides are popular at tourist spots around Thailand, including popular beach destinations such as Krabi.
Related Coverage

• Circus elephant tramples Vietnamese girl Herald Sun, 17 Oct 2011
  
• US zoos step up elephant safety rules The Australian, 25 Aug 2011
  
• Review: Meet The Elephant Man The Daily Telegraph, 17 Jun 2011
  
• Elephant rampage The Australian, 9 Jun 2011
  
• Man gored to death in elephant rampage Herald Sun, 9 Jun 2011
  

You
sick twisted fuck...you'd rejoice a womans' death,just to throw
reference to Cori,thankyou,I'll use this thread with mental health
services as well tomorrow.You've lost all decency Suzy Ryan and this is
excellent.I always wanted you to fail in the eyes of God,true God,not
that shitbag tyrant of the Old Testament...Fuck you.

Billy Ruben wrote:http://webanarchy.net/v3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10333&p=106491#p106491

Quit with the lies shitbag,here's a link if you want to discuss.I'm contacting Ballarat mental health and police about you again
tomorrow.Next,if I was really calling you,like I have'nt and you're
that scared,why have'nt I heard from the police and if you are getting
threats,you'll find when you pay telstra for the service of a police
trace,($48 in 2002 per month) after you do an event number with the
police,you'll find shitbag,that it's not me.

OH,anyone out there actually harassing her,which I know you're not,use a public telephone ands wear gloves and GIVE IT TO THE BITCH...Now,drop dead Suzy Ryan...

true lilly wrote:POLICE WATCHDOGS QUIT
Police watchdogs quit



4:55PM
Keith Moor, Ashley Gardiner

THE man who ordered the Office of Police Integrity probe into Sir Ken Jones
has quit his role at the police watchdog.

• Crime statistics: Home violence link to assaults spike
  

true lilly wrote:

• How do you assess a killer's mental health?
  
  Self-confessed Norwegian mass killer Anders Behring
  Breivik is more likely to face psychiatric care rather than prison,
  after psychiatrists declared him psychotic. So how is this kind of
  assessment carried out?
  

In cases of those who like "Billy Ruben",
also BOAST that they ALREADY USE claims of
metal ill-health TO GET AWAY WITH CRIMES,
you do NOT confuse "mental" with,
KNOWINGLY, WILLINGLY EVIL!

Oh, and "Billy Ruben's" Threats also include that
"THEY" WILL GET AWAY WITH IT, due to "THEIR"
LOW Friends In HIGH PLACES.

true lilly wrote:SERIOUS MATTER:
BILLY RUBEN'S Flood of TEXT THREATS

To quote "tintin", "it's all connected".


Just a reminder, that,
"Billy Ruben, aka, Jason, aka, Jase"=a number of people
using a number of phones and fake internet I.D.'s,
has NOT stopped THREATENING ME, and the latest proves yet again,
that "they=the Billy Ruben Circle", are a serious threat
to all colours and stripes, particularly "their" own associates.


Boasting killer faces long jail term,
Supreme Court toldBy Mark Dunn
From:Herald Sun
November 30, 2011
1:54PM
A MURDERER who used Facebook and text messages
to warn of a potential massacre and then
text-boasted about killing his uncle
faces a lengthy jail sentence, the Victorian Supreme Court heard today.

"I shot my uncle with a shotgun and killed him ... my uncle Peter,
he was a f... head and I blew him away, it will be on the news I
reckon,'' killer Sam Michael Westbrook told a cousin via SMS text the
day after shooting dead Peter Westbrook.

Sam Westbrook's Facebook page was also found to contain the statement:
"jack dies 2nite so doea ne 1 in Dodd Street that walks outside''.

In a case of what prosecutors called "reckless'' murder,
Westbrook 24, had the day before the May 23, 2010 murder at Maryborough
told people he was out to shoot a different man, Jack Forder, a partner of another
of his cousins, Alana
Westbrook.
SMS and voice calls between Westbrook and Mr Forder
recorded a heated exchange and threats, documents before the court state.

Related Coverage

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• GT giant joins V8 Supercars FoxSports, 15 Jul 2011
  

After drinking heavily that afternoon and evening, Westbrook -
who had been spoken to earlier by police because of his agitated state
but appeared to have calmed down - phoned Alana and threatened to
"blow her and her father's house up'' - a statement the prosecution said was
"drunken bravado'', the court heard.

Despite a friend trying to dissuade Westbrook from violence,
he texted saying: "Nope ova it every 1 dies 2nite.''

Having stolen car and a 12 gauge Baikal shotgun from a Maryborough address,
Westbrook drove to Dodds St where Mr Forder lived about 4am, court
documents state.

Wearing an ammunition belt, Westbrook confronted Alana,
who said Mr Forder was not home, before calling out to her father,
Peter Westbrook, who appeared at the door of an adjacent house.

Westbrook turned and fired a shot, hitting his uncle in the chest and killing him
before reloading and firing to where Alana had been standing and then
reloading and firing a third time, the court heard.

Defence lawyer John Desmond conceded Westbrook, who
pleaded guilty to murder and reckless conduct, may be in his 40s
before he is released from jail but
said there was no intention to kill his uncle,
only stated threats against Mr Forder.
(NO, HE STATED, EVERYONE:

"Nope ova it every 1 dies 2nite.''

"jack dies 2nite so doea ne 1 in Dodd Street
that walks outside''.

"blow her and her father's house up''

and these still are NOT as BAD as "Billy Ruben's" threats!

Justice Betty King, noting
his communication of text and Facebook threats
would be taken into account for sentencing,
said the case had probably destroyed the family.
Westbrook will be sentenced on a date to be fixed.

Office of Police Integrity officials
Paul Jevtovic and Michael Strong quit
by:Keith Moor
From:Herald Sun
November 30, 20114:55PM
Office of Police Integrity director Michael Strong has quit the police watchdog.
Picture: Craig Borrow Herald Sun


The OPI's former Paul Jevtovic
has quit his role
as deputy police watchdog.
He was in charge when
ex-Chief Commissioner
Simon Overland made allegations against his
then
deputy Sir Ken Jones.
File picture HWT Image Library

THE man who ordered the Office of Police Integrity probe into Sir Ken Jones has quit his role at the police watchdog.

OPI deputy director Paul Jevtovic has accepted a senior role at the Australian Crime Commission.

The OPI director, Michael Strong, is also leaving the OPI ahead of it being
scrapped and replaced by the Baillieu Government's Broad-based
Anti-corruption Commission (IBAC).

Mr Strong was warned months ago by the Baillieu Government that there was no role for him at IBAC.

An acting OPI chief will be appointed until the IBAC, which was due to
begin operations in July this year, is up and running, which is not
expected to be until the middle of next year.
A government spokesman today thanked Mr Strong for his work.

''An acting appointment will be made to head the OPI and ensure the body
continues to perform its role until the establishment of the IBAC and
Victoria's new anti-corruption regime,'' the spokesman said.

• Home violence link to assaults spike
  
• I don't owe Overland apology - Ryan Herald Sun, 28 Oct 2011
  
• Rats in ranks of troubled force Adelaide Now, 28 Oct 2011
  
• OPI damns Sir Ken over Minister plot Herald Sun, 27 Oct 2011
  
• Police spies trailed Sir Ken Herald Sun, 12 Oct 2011
  
• Put watchdogs on tight leash Herald Sun, 12 Oct 2011
  

Mr Strong today said Mr Jevtovic would be leaving the OPI on January
6 to take up an appointment as Executive Director, Intervention &
Prevention, with the ACC in Canberra.

''Paul Jevtovic has provided exemplary service to OPI during a challenging period of our history. I am most grateful to him,'' Mr Strong said.

''The ACC is fortunate to have procured his services. It is a great pity his considerable talents have been lost to Victoria.

''I have written to the Deputy Premier, Mr Ryan, about the timing of my own
departure from OPI. It would be inappropriate for me to say anything
further on this topic at this time.

“Arrangements are in hand to ensure management continuity at OPI.
It will be business as usual pending transition to the Independent Broad Based Anti-corruption Commission.”

Mr Jevtovic was the acting OPI boss, as Mr Strong was on leave,
when the then chief commissioner, Simon Overland, came to him in May
and made misconduct allegations against then deputy commissioner Jones.

Mr Overland later that day ordered Sir Ken to leave police headquarters immediately.

Sir Ken then helped spark an Ombudsman's probe into the OPI after Sir Ken
complained to him about the action taken against him by the OPI.

Allegations were also made to the Ombudsman that the OPI had abused its powers
during its investigation into Sir Ken and Tristan Weston, the former adviser to
Police Minister Peter Ryan.

Mr Jevtovic was accused of ordering the probe into Sir Ken as a favour to
Mr Overland because of an alleged friendship with Mr Overland,
who worked with Mr Jevtovic when they were both with the
Australian Federal Police.

An Ombudsman's report tabled in State Parliament on October 11 cleared Mr Jevtovic
and the OPI of any conflict of interest, or acting inappropriately, in ordering the investigations of Sir Ken and Mr Weston.

The OPI tabled its findings from its probe into Mr Weston two weeks later and
accused him of misconduct relating to his plot to get rid of Mr Overland as chief commissioner.

Mr Weston resigned from his Baillieu Government position the day the damning OPI report was tabled.

And Baillieu Government MP Bill Tilley resigned from his position as a
parliamentary secretary after the OPI report revealed he had secret
meetings with Sir Ken at Sir Ken's home and at the Shrine of Remembrance
while trying to persuade Sir Ken to withdraw his resignation.

The second OPI report into the misconduct allegations against Sir Ken
is not expected to be completed until early next year.

Complicated reasons, which the Herald Sun is not legally able to reveal,
will prevent the OPI making its findings on Sir Ken public.

The law requires the OPI to deliver its findings to State Ombudsman George
Brouwer, who may decide not to table the results in State Parliament -
or he may only table a censored report on the OPI's findings.

Crucial findings from the OPI's continuing probe into Sir Ken had to be left out of last month's OPI report into Mr Weston.

That investigation started after multiple misconduct allegations were made to
the OPI about Sir Ken.

The allegations were made by Mr Overland and separately by two very senior
people who worked closely with Sir Ken at Victoria Police headquarters.
moork@heraldsun.com.au

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:http://hpanwoforum.freeforums.org/why-no-reviews-of-david-icke-preaching-in-melbourne-oct-2011-t2123-30.html

David Vincent wrote:

true lilly wrote:Seems 'some' need a little more context to understand
the great hole 'they' have dug 'themselves' into...with a lot
of 'help' from 'their' 'friends'.
Re: IT BEGINS....
https://sodlikeproductions.forumotion.com/t1612p15-it-begins#26452
Post true lilly Today at 12:17 am

ROFLMAO

And the best part about that thread,is your "second death" that you threaten others with and boast about,isn't Judaic Old Testament,the thieves that they were,but based on The Mystery Schools of Egypt.

So you subscribe,to the very thing you hate

it's all...From Out Of Egypt....LULZ

Welcome to the family Suzy Ryan,take good care of you now.

You spam,so shall I...

Billy Ruben wrote:

true lilly wrote:
And, "you" are NOTHING.

Sure about that?!?!?!?!

Billy Ruben wrote:Do the right thing and seek not recognition for those deeds,it will be noted as a spiritual aspect for after death,then,maybe a fruiter like you can keep something of themselves as the ego layer is stripped away and fed to MAAT the reptilian,leaving you as a clear virgin shell of consciousness and soul.Have a nice day...

The lies,slander,conspiracies,the games,the cruelty you have displayed to people and animals...you think there's something worth of you sparing...I already know you're the walking dead,like 90% of the human trash that filth this planet.I just vainly try and warn those,what the real second death is....The joke's on you,Suzy Ryan,Gods Anointed Spammer...



Ammut (aka Ammit, Ammet, Amemet)

She waited in the throne room often hidden as the judges of the Egyptian dead weighed the hearts of the deceased. Evil folk's hearts would become her next snack. Their souls were the main course. This was a second death, as being barred from the afterlife the soul was doomed to wander forever over the earth. Ammut is part lioness, hippo, and crocodile. She is also called the Bone Eater and Devourer of Millions. She is a most holy being as she alone could thusly bar the evil from entering the afterlife.

Ahhh,excellent insights there Mr Ruben,if I say so myself,would'nt you agree True Lilly,you do,but you just don't realise it...

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

True Lilly wrote:
And there's 'Billy Ruben' with 'his'
months of death threats that specify such methods,
and associating himself with bad cops, health unionists,
biker groups, and really bad dudes...which you would right off,
as an attention seeking nutter...but for the at least
3 different phones 'he' uses, and, the others who know of,
and approve of 'his' death threats, and the very specific
associations 'he' brags of, that make 'him' believe
'he's' 'untouchable' enough to keep getting away with it.

...and then of course, there are
the 2 Car Bombs I've already survived...
and the other attacks by really bad dudes, etc...

and 'Jason/Billy Ruben's' dangerously erratic and
volatile behaviour that makes 'him' a liability to
'friends', 'associates' and anyone 'he' 'perceives'
as a 'foe'.

We've all been through this.
Two months ago,when I got sick of True Lillys',baseless,groundless,slander and lies,against everyone whom she finds dis-pleasure with,ie,anybody who does'nt unquestioning believe,who littany of lies.
Frustrated to the point of doing something stupid,I decided to take my chances with Ballarat Police,close to where Suzy lives,she being the "BUM" part of town,Wendouree West,known for its bakeries and cock gobbling glory holes of Hollioke Park.
...I have the phone bill here to prove I rang on a Saturday.
Anyway,not expecting to get anywhere,especially,if I gave away my relationship with NSW Police,to be rather strained at best.
I was surprised to have my queries answered by a very professional and seasoned officer,who knew the law and history of Victoria and Ballarat.
...After describing my complaint,being accused as a babyfucker and goat abuser and so has many others by this nutter.I mentioned Suzy's ex-husband,Bill Ryan,a serving member?,remember,this is Suzy data,it could be made up at the bottom of a Gin bottle.

BAck in a minute...
The officer then took an interest and began looking for this Bill Ryan.I said to the officer,she'd be easy to remember,her car was blown up by bombing in her driveway and herself has been beaten up twice and put in a hospital.I could hear the keyboard,thumping away in the background,he's researching the data as I speak.He had a chuckle and said,there has'nt been a car-bombing in the state of Victoria for 30 years and that was the Russell St bombing.
...The officer,whose name I'll keep secret until Suzy Ryan,True Lilly/Vera Susa wants to reveal more or challenge this,said she can't be charged the way the laws stand now,but that may differ in the near future.

That sad little tale,that Suzy Ryan/True Lilly made up,lied about,she has been milking the public and friends for years,whether it's money,computers or a lift down the street,True Lilly has been profiting off her lies for many years now,off the good will of her readers.
She continues with her lies,cause they serve her well.I exposed her for this and hopefully,slowly,others catch on.She even plays this on her own family,and she abandoned them,in favour of delivering Gods Saving Word,her schizoid spam,even over the love of her children.Still think she's not a threat,guess again,she's a dangerous,manipulative,game-playing,conspiring schizoid,who fooled many of you with her old lady act.
She isn't nice,frail or alone.She's very well connected.She's a liar,slanderer,extortionist,is this the quality of character,that one should have to advocate God for you?
Nutter extraordinaire...But wait,there's more,WOOF,WOOF...

Now see her above post,it still contains the lies that she's trying to utilize to build another fantasy,completely crackers,but then again,it's the only game she has in town,as the management said,it's what she does,well,I don't have to tolerate it,her or her lying crap.

Billy Ruben wrote:...But I suppose you all knew that,stupid bint,could'nt get any interest and spread rumours about dogfuckers and babyrapers...where it was probably an uncle or step dad who tricked her out.Anyway,I'd love to see the evidence where she tries to extort the forum for money...pathetic she is,anyway,it's a war and it's grizzley,sorry about this to human eyes,but it's the way it is...
She tried extorting Tintin too,everything she accuses one of,believe me,it's the opposite...she's a true lowlife,see it in the street,don't hit it,don't pity it,expectorate on it...in other words,hawk it right back and spit it heavy in her face,that's what I intend on doing...

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:Anyone of unfounded crimes and atrocities ever again I swear,I'll pursue you to the ends of the Earth,your God,will not protect you...

How dare you,pick on someone that can't even defend themselves.
Do you know how much hurt and pain your stupid little game does,how does mine back to you feel? Get it,myopic slag???
Ozpixie would never be what you accuse her off.

Quote: I Am

Jase,

I would not even show this to ozpixie as I know how much it would upset her and trust me, she does not need this sort of disgusting accusation in her life.

I have been slated by the best of them but really don’t give a toss. I know who I am and my friends and family know who I am.. I have been around long enough that it is water off a duck’s back.

Oz on the other hand is a very sweet lady who is not all that savvy to the hatred spread on the net.

I cannot give you too much information but I can assure you she is not the person true lilly believes she is. Her name is not Christine and she has never met or had any contact with lilly. She is not only not from Ballarat, She is not even from the same state.

How's that for showing what little you really know,eh? But still quite prepared to vomit your bullshit.You got no credibility and you make the Anti-Icke movement look cold and hate-filled with no warrant to be...and for that

I THANK YOU

ANYWAY,YOU'RE NOT GETTING LET OFF,WHILST YOU STILL USE GENERAL FORUM,i WILL HAUNT YOU,BACK IN YOUR DUNGEON DRAGON...AND WHILE YOU'RE THERE,ACCUSE ANYBODY OF ANY SEXUAL CRIME AND I WILL TAUNT AND HAUNT YOU MORE...

THIS WILL NOT END,I WILL AWAIT YOU AND DESTROY EVERY SYLLABLE YOU DARE UTTER IN FUTURE...F*CK YOU,IS THE ORDER FOR EVERYDAY,DRAGON...

Billy Ruben wrote:ANSWER ME YOU GOD WHORE,WHY ACCUSE SOMEONE MEEK AND MILD OF AN ATROCITY THAT SHE COULD'NT EVEN READ ABOUT,LET ALONE PERFORM,WITH NO EVIDENCE AS USUAL,BUT YOU SEEM PRE-OCCUPIED WITH THIS SUBJECT,AND NAMED OZPIXIE WRONG,BUT STILL PERSIST,WHY SPREAD VICIOUS LIES AND RUMOURS,JUST SO PEOPLE WOULD TAKE NOTICE OF YOUR POST,BITCH!!!
I ALSO NOTICED YOU NEVER MENTIONED CIGGY AND I FOR MONTHS,UNTIL YOU FOUND I WAS POSTING AT HPANWO...WAS THIS THE BIGGEST BUNGLE YOU AND YOUR ILK MADE,I KNOW SO,HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA,F*CK YOU....
ALL THIS JUST TO RAISE YOUR READERSHIP...IF YOU WERE'NT SUCH A SPASTIC,YOU'D STILL BE WHERE YOU WANT TO BE,THE DAVID ICKE FORUMS...NER,NER,NER,NER

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:I just sent Alison (I am) an email of this thread with your accusations about Ozpixie.As long as it don't go against their non-disclosure agreement,I asked her to inform Christine of this thread and to please give me information why True Lilly,(mental basket case spastic bitch),why would one of Gods' anointed would make such a claim?

I also asked for information about you madam...not where you live,but what you've done to others and the games and back-stabbing you involve yourself with,thankyou Lulzy for admitting this,it was arsehole game players is why I left DIF in the end,but I might just re-activate my account...and keep a low profile...the rant room is too tempting....And you know why arsehole???I'll rant every thread you've done,lost in the bowels of the rant room...Then,I'll ask Ozpixie to take you to court over your accusations,by using the police,(they'll help her...then when it's thrown out of court cause we just found out you're a registered mental patient...a real one!!!...then I will be ever so sorry I spoke ill to you...and forgive you for your harassment and games you play...if not,you're gonna look stupid,at any rate...and if Ozpixie does cough up...and reveals your lies and games the same as everyone else asserts,then your readers,must be as mental and fucked in the head as you...have a nice day.

and just to let the discerning reader know...

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:Hey Mental Patient,since you assert that you can answer questions,without spam I hope,...

What justifies you calling Christine/Ozpixie a goat fucker and that she makes men do it for bribery purposes???

Would you not consider that the men would rather f*ck Ozpixie than goats...but the possibilty is,that the men might rather f*ck a goat than some broken shrunken imp of a person such as yourself???

Why do you always label people goat,dog/fuckers,peadophiles?I have,but they and I know the truth of it...Even proved a few things that go on deaf ears.

You're sick Suzy,real sick...if you get sanctioned in a mental home,I'll forgive you,but you're on the street being a danger to yourself and everybody else...I can con a mental health team Suzy,5 minute chat with you,they'll never let you out,they hate God botherers the most in psyche-wards,drug the absolute crap out of them...

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

true lilly wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

So,where is the sex/porn spam,do you still think beastiality is natural sex???You see,Lilly,it's about interpretations,what you view as natural and loving,the law of the land regards as perverse and criminal...but in danger of giving the judge an erection

...and your 'double speak' is so weak and transparent...could it be that
you are the local horse rapist that the judges keep letting off...

true lilly wrote:sadly, some 'sick puppies' are so sick, a bullet's their only 'cure'... ...
... or you could simply 'you' 'ninny' 'billy' goat shagger's...

...umm, so 'you' do 'know' Christine in your satanic biblical sense, that local
animal raping ex-copper's witch...
...she couldn't get enough of making men fcuk goats...them blackmailing them...
...to stay in her sick death circles forever...I did warn people about her, years ago,
back in the ATS days...mind you, she and her ilk are a dime a dozen cheap slags...
...I'm sure you can find another if she's no longer available...now go, to
your own kind...I can't even pity you...

Are you kidding...No,this comes from the lips of True Lilly,it's all batshit...

Lilly,stop telling lies and no,I don't know Christine/OzPixie...Imagine that eh?David Icke Forum Moderators are either Illuminati Shills like Dark Eternal or goat fucking satanist like OzPixie,cause True Lilly tells me so...

No Lilly,I don't think they'll let you back on DIF....EVER.

DO YOU SEE THE PATTERN TRUE LILLY,EVERYONE YOU TAKE A DISLIKE TOO,IS PAINTED A GOATFUCKER,BABYFUCKER OR SOMETHING ELSE.YOU HAVE ISSUES IN THIS AREA,AND IT'S ALL TO DO WITH YOUR PERCEPTION OF YOURSELF.IF YOU WERE MADE TO DO THINGS WHEN YOU WERE YOUNG,IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT,IF YOU INSTIGATED IT,THEN GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON...YOU POINT THE FINGER SUZY,BUT IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME I HAVE FIGURED YOU OUT,READ YOUR PM ABOUT YOUR FAMILY...

Billy Ruben wrote:This is not such a bad way to go actually,my way,I would've destroyed you,but the fall-out for me would be just as bad...this way,we can deal with the FACTS as you've claimed...

Once you have no credibilty,you can post spam to the wall,cause there is no-way anyone will believe you...Hey,how come you have'nt called in the cavalry??? (hOrSeY-Palomino)...when it gets out of control you usually sink to every method that you accuse David Icke and Tintin of...
Gang-stalking,harassment,etc...when the dust settles,was that one little lie that kicked this all off a year ago,...Was it All Worth It?

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

true lilly wrote:Nothing 'private' about this, 'you' 'ninny nong'...

So, which is it?
"Billy Ruben" makes a serious threat, or, he's all lying talk?

From Billy Ruben To true lilly, Today at 4:28 pm
____________________________________________________________________

true lilly wrote:
So, you still haven't figured out why the smarter ones hand-balled you this:
"Keep pushing and I'll destroy you good and proper.", job.
_____________________________________________________________________

quote:Billy Ruben


your a goner mate...
_____________________________________________________________________

Either way...'you & Ciggy' simply shouldn't have spammed, my one thread,
with 'you & Ciggy's' endless public 'conversations' about 'you & Ciggy's'
'beliefs' on when a child is too young or too related to lust after, and then
stepped up 'your' phone and on line harassment, when I asked 'you', again,
to remove that, utterly sick, way off topic, 'conversation' of 'yours',
from my thread, that was 'chopped up' to have 'those conversations'
of 'you & Ciggy', head and end the pages, as if it where my topic...and then cry,
rant, libel, make endless personal threats and try to sound like 'you'
AND 'your' supportive ASSOCIATES are 'good guys'.

Mind you, as 'Billy Ruben & Ciggy' thought it funny at the time of 'that conversation',
that I should ask them to stop spamming my thread with 'their' sick 'fishing', and that
'he' keeps bringing it up, I'd say it's something else that has 'them' worried...as it should.

this is what I mean't you're a goner,you think I'd martyr you...hehehehe,that's how you think,idiot,no,a living permanenet death...I destroyed every credible shred you ever had or beLIEved you had.

This is what I am had to say,the truth...you're a disgusting spiteful shitbag of a person Suzy Ryan...if I get a chance,I'll f*ck you over in court
...Alison won't even show Ozpixie your stuff and I don't blame her,Ozpixie to me was like an Aussie Antiem,a very nice young lady,but Antiem shocked me with her strengths,I always thought Ozpixie was a little softy,like Curtain Cat,very lovely girls...You spiteful stale withered shitbag of a woman,I HATE you properly now...and have no shame in how I treat you,exactly how I treat demons,what I say to them,made them weep...you I will break...I am an old demon in transition,anything that tries stopping me in future,I'll swat,as I do to roaches...

the only thing being threatened is what little credibilty you think you had...call the police,go on,dare you,send your bald headed mate up,I'm in pretty good shape compared to yesterday.F*CK YOU!!!

sucked in...you make me ill...


True Lilly,puts her foot in it:

Mind you, as 'Billy Ruben & Ciggy' thought it funny at the time of 'that conversation',
that I should ask them to stop spamming my thread with 'their' sick 'fishing', and that
'he' keeps bringing it up, I'd say it's something else that has 'them' worried...as it should.

Thankyou Suzy,that's exactly what I said,spam a True Lilly shitbox thread to make it interesting and you get painted as a child molester...exactly what I've been saying.

The only disappointing aspect,is you're proving me dead-on with no effort needed,this is all to easy...


THIS SUPER-SPAM CAN BE ALOT OF FUN AND ANNOYANCE,THANKYOU TRUE LILLY,FOR INTIATING ME IN THE SCHOOL OF SECRET ARTS...

Billy Ruben wrote:yeah,we remember the car-bombing,you lied and bullshitted about that one too...and sent us a pic of some woman walking a dog as proof,yeah,credible honest god fearing suzy fuckwit ryan...

Billy Ruben wrote:NOW THAT YOU SLYLY ADMIT YOU'RE TORTURING THOSE CATS IN YOUR YARD,LIKE I ALWAYS SUSPECT A PATHETIC SLAG LIKE YOU TO DO,JUST TO UPSET ME,WELL F*CK YOU SUZY RYAN,A CAT'S LIFE IS WORTH MORE THAN A 1000 OF YOURS,I DON'T CARE WHO SEES THIS OR DISGUSTED WITH ME OR EVEN LAW ENFORCEMENT,BUT I SWEAR,I'LL CATCH UP WITH YOU AND TEACH YOU WHAT PAIN IS...I SPENT 4 HOURS ON THE NET,LAST NIGHT USING THE WHITE PAGES,BITCH LIKE YOU DON'T HAVE A REGISTERED ADDRESS ON A NORMAL PHONE LINE,SO YEAH,I' NOT TAKING YOUR SHIT THIS TIME...FUCKING DIE BITCH...

GINGER AND WHITE CATS I LOVE AND ADORE,I WAS LAST YEAR,GOING TO DRIVE THERE JUST TO TAKE ONE OR TWO OFF YOUR HANDS...BUT F*CK YOU...YOU DEAD TO ME...

Billy Ruben wrote:

Hi shitbag scumbucket.Cause you were spiteful spamming unrelate crap this morning and my little modem packed in,I just had a friend/connection replace modem,line filter,all chords and Now I'm going to be a bastard and spam the fuck out of this place.Sod was warned and he can't do shit about it,so suck my dick you dog raping,child porn freak...and you admitted you have child porn and JD John Drake/Droike plays moral card one day and defends a known and self confessed pervert the next day.Enjoy the Federal Police babe,cause they're next babe...FUCK YOU BITCH !!!!!!

Billy Ruben wrote:

I was wondering Suzy Ryan,as a rough guess,did you get your 24 hour warning today?.When you do and if,under section 32 of the Mental Health act in NSW,you just have to hide in the cupboard like I did for 5 days,when I had three squad cars and a padded wagon waiting to take me away after the hoax rape fiasco.

Of course I was sane,even the nurses noticed that,believed my occult story one of them,having dealt with a patient a victim of the same group.

But don't say I didn't warn you,it's for your own good and well-being,taking a break and maybe,besides giving you plastic forks and knives and taking your shoe laces off you,(wear slip-ons or boots),behave,they might let you tinker in the garden.But you hold up those police officers with knitting needles,like I expect and you'll get your WACO...understand me.

Because,I really am Tintin/David Icke and have had my eye on you for a very long time little missy.

This part of the universe is dark and in control of Satan itself and snuffing out the very few specks of light in this dark,evil world,is my job.Don't take it to personal,my little Jesus lamb.

And I know you are the lamb to be sacrificed to begin Armageddon,but I will prevent your blood from flowing,little child of God.It is my world.

Now,enjoy the prescription drugs,a heavy regimen of,to chemically labotomise and I will visit every night,to spoon feed your mushy gruel,plastic spoon of course with a little prozac sprinkles on your ice-cream.It's because I love you.

Billy Ruben wrote:

And when you decide to take a long stroll or go shopping,it's best to have every time-table for buses and trains,like I did.I escaped and went home for bongs,sex and real food.And a shower I did'nt need to wear footwear in.Seeing this horrible old 70 year old,squashing a shit down the drain hole of the shower.I was disgusted.Lock your shower door,or the fat brunette,who offered me free rent and a share in her house,came running in,sucking on my flaccid penis,the shampoo,blinding me at the very right second,almost,comical.I was scared of her.And always knock,before you enter any room,this horrible looking man,said I'm the Butterfly,just as hs started to ejaculate all over the back of the door from fast and furious wanking...be warned.It's gonna be fun.

Billy Ruben wrote:Keep credit cards,ATM savings cards and all electronic ways of getting money,home,or hidden in your pants.They usually keep it in a safe and only allow you $15 a day back in 2002.Do not wear jewellery,rings,wedding or any sort.Keep valuables at home,or safety deposit box.

Billy Ruben wrote:

and keep your stupid fucking beliefs to yourself,OK...

Billy Ruben wrote:There is a forum admin here,named Sod/Julian.He's over 35,looks like a demonic version of Sting,Pommy (English),loves a night on the booze and drugs,which on average,makes him a lazy bastard.Like most western men are.Spoilt fuckin' rotten I say.But he'll find his runners,when he's conscripted for Asian battlefields,soon enough.I mean,if the bastard could use an iron lung to assist breathing,he would.It means,he hardly ever moderates,bit picky on who he answers PM's,real bitch.

However,there is a very skilled,rather energetic,smart and sassy,unbiased world wide women here,named Tiswas.

She's spiritual,understanding,gives good debates and I believe,quite unbiased in all matters concerning Icke.Offers the olive branch to those who foolishly,troll and attempt to sway her to the dark side.

This rare lady of light,with all her wisdom and knowledge,would be a great assett to the forums administration and I believe she is the answer to cleaning up the spam wars we have here,for which I trully,hand on heart apologise for my own involvement.

I hope the current admin,the one who needs a iron lung to breathe,maybe consider this idea as one of the few rare instances that I could conceive,that has a small amount of merit.

If anyone feels the idea should be lobbied to our admin,please raise your concerns here.

Thankyou to the forum for your time and consideration,yours sincerely,Billy Ruben.

Billy Ruben wrote:I am sure,in the name of freedom of speech,that Droike,Marpat and True Lilly,their futures would be safe,in the hands of Tiswas.

Not so with Mr Ruben,who would Nazi there arses and relegate them to a new sub-forum,called The Gas Chamber.

Be lucky,that true lights like Tiswas exist.







For I stand for Half-Caste pride,a Nazi and proud of it!!!!

true lilly wrote:It's been a Basket Case since the early '60's,
from what I remember...

Frankston Hospital a basket case - AMA
From:AAP
December 28, 2011
1:20AM

THE Australian Medical Association (AMA) has warned Victorians to
avoid Frankston Hospital, saying it is a basket case after it closed a
30-bed ward due to a lack of government funding.

The Age says the patients at the Mornington Peninsula hospital,
which is under extra pressure during the holiday season, have
endured long delays, particularly in the emergency department.

Nurses have told the paper they are deeply concerned about the closure
of a general medical ward at this time of year.

They said thousands of patients had already been languishing on trolleys
in emergency in recent months, instead of being admitted to beds on wards.

The president of the AMA's Victorian branch, Harry Hemley,
advised people to avoid Frankston and attend neighbouring hospitals instead.

"I wouldn't recommend anyone make their way to Frankston Hospital
over the holiday period ... they should go to Monash or one
of the other neighbouring hospitals because Frankston has clearly
become a basket case," he said.
Related Coverage

• Ambulance response times slip Herald Sun, 6 Nov 2011
  
• AMA says hospital bed crisis being ignored Perth Now, 3 Nov 2011
  
• Debts cripple Victoria's health care system Courier Mail, 15 Oct 2011
  
• Demand crippling state ER services Herald Sun, 7 Oct 2011
  
• Patients die waiting in hospital queues Courier Mail, 5 Jul 2011
  

A spokesman for hospital operator Peninsula Health, John Dukes,
said the 3 North ward at Frankston Hospital was closed in June due to
budget constraints but could be reopened when the hospital is under
pressure and needs more beds.

Billy Ruben wrote:

Billy Ruben wrote:

Hi shitbag scumbucket.Cause you were spiteful spamming unrelate crap this morning and my little modem packed in,I just had a friend/connection replace modem,line filter,all chords and Now I'm going to be a bastard and spam the fuck out of this place.Sod was warned and he can't do shit about it,so suck my dick you dog raping,child porn freak...and you admitted you have child porn and JD John Drake/Droike plays moral card one day and defends a known and self confessed pervert the next day.Enjoy the Federal Police babe,cause they're next babe...FUCK YOU BITCH !!!!!!

Thought you were better than that JD,you might be a low life lying bastarde,but never believe4d you would support a self confessed child pervert and child porn freak like True Lilly,read between the lines sir,she installed the porn to try and set her husband up,there's alot you don't know,but the police are trying to prove...Have a nice day sir.I'm enjoying it...